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Dear Teddy
I am so sorry to hear about your friend’s dog Duc, but glad you have found us. Sheena and Vally have given you lots of information already and I hope that has given you some pointers for appropriate treatment.
How is Duc getting on today? Please let your friend know that we all know how hard this is and how shocking it is to receive this diagnosis. He would be very welcome to post, as of course you are welcome to post on his behalf.
IHMA is a serious disease but lots of dogs do survive with the right treatment. There are a lot of success stories here and I do hope that will give your friend some encouragement.
Lots of love,
Mary and Mable x
Hiya Beth
Hearing that Heathy is happy, hungry & wants to play means more than you know – this is very important. It means he is doing very well in the circumstances & I want you to be really happy about this. Don’t worry about the weakness for now – I promise Worzel was the same & it WILL pass. We had times when we thought he was suffering with the pred & with the reduction – again, it is all worthwhile when things do improve, but it is a slow journey with many ups & downs. He dropped from 23-24kg down to 17.5kg – you can imagine how bad he looked. They cannot recover overnight – I wish that were possible, but it isn’t. This week may be a bit rough on him again with the reduction – please keep us posted & ask anything if you are concerned.
Great to hear he doesn’t have a UTI – one less thing to worry about!
Just had a look at human doses for milk thistle – this one is based on scientific research:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/milk-thistle/dosing/hrb-20059806
So it looks like the maximum is 800mg 3 times per day for humans. Therefore 75% is 600mg 3 times per day. Hope that helps! Incidentally, my vet has seen used it to save a dog from a case of mushroom poisoning, so it is miraculous stuff.
We know what it’s like to be really down, worried & have your life completely taken over, but I hope you know you have good friends around you on here. Please trust & use Patrice’s advice – she has an incredible depth knowledge about this, both from personal experience with her dog Chance & from the massive amount of research she has absorbed over the years since Chance was diagnosed. She was my rock when Worzel was ill & I promise I often felt as bad as you do during the worst times. I am still convinced that all Heathy’s problems are down to the pred & that his liver will be recovering at this very moment – it is by far the most resilient & regenerative organ in the body & can withstand a real onslaught.
Sending all our love, doggy hugs & a big cuddle to you & Heathy
Sheena, Worzel & Ollie xxxxx
Hi Teddy – so sorry to hear about Duc, although I’m glad you found us. There is lots of support here. Sheena and Vally have given you loads of advice – it is very important to get IMHA treated quickly. But there is hope, as Sheena emphasises. Please keep us informed of what the vets say when they have done more tests
all best wishes
Lynda
Hi Beth
Not what you wanted to hear, but it’s EARLY DAYS. How is Heathy in himself? Is he eating? Is he still weak? How they feel is so important.
I completely agree with Vally – get him off the pred as soon as safely possible, for sure. The dose he was on has played real havoc & he won’t recover overnight – give it a couple of weeks at least. There is often a small drop in PCV after each pred reduction & he is so near normal that it is not worth panicking about the anemia. And ditto to Vally – tell Dr Dodds everything. The blood tests do look like an infection (neutrophils & monocytes high), Beth, even though we do sometimes see anomalies from machine counted samples.
A sample of urine to confirm this is infection is the easiest way & I am glad they have done this. UTI’s are very common with high pred – another reason to reduce. This stuff is very hard on the kidneys too. Do you have any blood smear results (I know I have asked before – sorry)? Get advice from Dr Dodds about which antibiotic to use, please. Your research is correct on Baytril. I feel like I’m always the harbinger of doom on antibiotics, so I’d rather you get a professional opinion on which is the safest & most appropriate for Heathy. Ursodiol is an acid which occurs naturally & can help the liver detoxify. It sounds like a good idea in principle, but I’ve not heard of it being used before – please check with Dr Dodds. It must be given 2 hrs away from sucralfate.
Here is a link for milk thistle dosing – Dr Dodds has given some guidelines too:
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/milk_thistle.htm
It states you can use up to 200mg per 10 lbs of body weight for dogs with liver disease. Divided into smaller doses throughout the day is best. So you have plenty of scope there!
Please, please keep your hopes up – I know you are very worried. Perseverance will pay – so many of us had to learn the hard lesson of putting up with the horrible side effects to earn remission. Heathy is a real fighter & I know you are doing your very best to get him through this.
Love & hugs as always
Sheena x
Hi Teddy
I’m very sorry to hear about Duc. Although this is a serious disease, it can be beaten with the right treatment.
Onset can be extremely fast or it can happen gradually. The faster the onset, the more difficult it is to treat and hospitalisation is the best option. It is IMPERATIVE that your Vet does as many tests as possible to determine the cause – I would recommend finding a specialist in internal medicine who has experience in treating dogs with this illness AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. An inexperienced vet could cost the life of the dog.
The basic principles of initial treatment;
1. Prednisone or Prednisolone dosage 1mg per pound weight of dog divided into 2 equal doses. This is to suppress the initial auto-immune reaction quickly as it is fast acting (5-7 days). Injectable dexamethasone is a more potent immunosuppressant drug used in hospital for severe onset cases). Prednisone and prednisolone can cause dehydration – ensure the dog drinks plenty of water – use a syringe (without the needle of course!) to put water gently into the corner of their mouth & encourage drinking. They will also urinate more frequently & with great urgency sometimes.
2. On definite diagnosis of AIHA/IMHA – IMMEDIATE addition of a different type of immune-suppressant, azathioprine or cyclosporine, etc for example. There are many, many drugs of this type available for treatment and your dog may need one, two or even a cocktail of these drugs before they start to produce new red blood cells (called reticulocytes when they are “baby red cells”). Sometimes it takes time to find the drug or combination of drugs that works best. This is very important – prednisone and prednisolone on their own will not be sufficient and dogs suffer side effects after long term use. A dog’s primary treatment protocol should include more than just prednisone or prednisolone if the dog will be treated for long periods. I have read about too many cases where the vet has not added another immuno-suppressant quickly enough, or not at all, and the dog has had a more difficult recovery.
3. If there is any indication, even a vague suspicion, that the dog has an infection they should be tested and THEY MUST BE GIVEN ANTIBIOTICS. If not, recovery can be severely impacted due to a compromised immune system.
4. Inappropriate Clotting risk – it is ABSOLUTELY VITAL that your dog is given ultra-low dose aspirin (or if in hospital heparin). Ask your vet if any of the following are present in the CBC blood test and chemical screen (liver and kidney)
A)”Damaged” or abnormal red cells due to immune system partially destroying or biting lumps out the cells, causing them to clump together.
B) Complete breakdown (haemolysis, the H in AIHA) of LARGE numbers of red cells (erythrocytes), overloading the liver and kidneys with their component parts (haemolysis) – the faster the drop in PCV the more likely this is. Presence of large numbers of spherocytes (abnormal red cells) can be a problem – they are destroyed in the spleen as they are too big & wrong shape to get through.
C) Thrombocythemia/thrombocytosis – platelets 1,000,000 or above (this usually resolves when the cause is treated and is the least likely clotting problem)
D) Auto-agglutination – clumping due to antibodies “joining” erythrocytes together (Coombs Test positive – but test is NOT 100% reliable)
E) Blood transfusions – risk of clotting due to increased auto-immune reaction to “foreign” blood.
There are STILL too many deaths from inappropriate clotting because dogs are not being given an anti-coagulant and it really upsets me.
5. Stomach protection – sucralfate and famotidine (brand name pepcid) are extremely important in preventing & healing stomach ulcers which are caused by the medications like prednisone. Again it is VITAL your dog receives this to prevent /stop bleeding in the stomach & GI Tract.
6. Transfusions (if needed & it looks likely for Duc) – Vet should evaluate the patient very carefully before transfusing a dog with a PCV/HCT level of more than 25%. If it goes over this level, your dog may not produce new red blood cells on their own as their body thinks they have enough cells already, therefore SMALL transfusions are best. This is very important and some vets forget this basic fact from their initial training.
7. Very basic blood test facts & figures for most breeds:
HCT, haematocrit, is the percentage of red cells present in the blood – normal levels are between 35 – 55. PCV, packed cell volume, is a direct visual measurement of this same value. These values can be slightly different to the use of an automated analyzer to measure HCT.
Haemoglobin normal is 12-20 roughly depending on the particular lab’s value ranges.
Platelet count normally around 170,000-400,000
Total White Blood Cells 4-15 mm/m3
The term regenerative means reticulocytes are being produced in the bone marrow. The term non-regenerative means they are not being produced in the bone marrow. Regenerative is GOOD – the dog is responding to treatment. However, if there is large value of reticulosis and there is little increase in the number of red blood cells, there may be blood loss, perhaps due to an ulcer or tumour.
8. Pancreatitis can be a common side effect of prednisone with this disease – look out for vomiting &/or diarrhea, refusing food and dog in stomach pain, perhaps arching their back and groaning. Take them straight to the vet.
PLEASE REMEMBER – THIS IS JUST AN OVERVIEW. If you want more detailed information, please do not hesitate to ask us more questions- someone on here can help.
THIS DISEASE CAN BE BEATEN – HOPE IS ALWAYS THERE.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery
Sheena x
Hi Tamara
I am sure Dr Dodds method is better than any pill – far more natural & better absorbed most probably.
I don’t give Worzel carrots any more either – the same as you, bits in his poo, and with added very stinky wind! Oh, the smells with our dogs – good job our close friends don’t mind.
A few more points & Ashki will be in the normal range on the PCV front – the two of you are amazing – keep that PCV going up!
Love & cuddles,
Sheena & the boys xxxxx