Stem Cells?

[Amy]

Has anyone done any research on stem cell therapy for IMHA? I have been reading and there is some info out there. I am wondering if you have looked into it. Does it work? What are the costs? Would you consider it for your dog?

[Sheena]

Hi Amy

What a coincidence! I do believe this could be an effective treatment in the near future for our pets. A few weeks back, I watched a pretty deeply medical programme on MS (multiple sclerosis) where the immune system mistakenly attacks the nervous system, particulary the myelin sheath or nerve cell covering, including the brain sometimes. It got me thinking & I have some understanding now of the potential use for IMHA. There are issues – it’s complicated & unknown territory. Can I write you a very detailed message tomorrow when my brain is less tired? (12.35 here so a bit sleepy!). Also I can refer to my notes/main PC etc.

But yes, we would probably all consider anything (that did not involve prolonged pain & suffering of course). I would & one day, this will be the answer to just about every medical problem, auto immune diseases, new organs grown for a specific animal/person …. so many potential uses it blows me away.

More tomorrow

Sheena x

[Sheena]

Also should mention cancer breakthrough in instructing the immune system to destroy cancer cells – maybe stopping T lymphocytes from attacking normal blood cells could be achieved one day in a similar way. As you know, this is the problem we face & why we have to suppress T Lymphocytes with the drugs.

[Amy]

I would love to hear more of what you know. There are a few Veterinary hospital treating IMHA with stem cells but I am confused on how its done. I get the stem cell use for joint pain because it is injected directly into the joints. I can’t find enough information about stem cell use for the IMHA and what the process is. I look forward to hearing what you know.

[Vally]

I agree Sheena, I suspect everything will pretty much all be cured by self in the future. Looking forward to it Sheena.

[Sheena]

Hi Amy

Think you might be interested in what Eleonora was asking – I hope I’ve explained in general terms here:
https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/forums/topic/camilla-aiha-dog-from-italy/page/9/

You might have found these sites already but worth a read:

http://www.vvhcny.com/newpage101.pml

http://tinyurl.com/hc8ad98

This article is one of my favourites explaining every known cause of this disease:
http://tinyurl.com/h4kwgnt

Here is a picture of a hematoetic stem cell
https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/AIHA_Terms/hsc-hematopoietic-stem-cells/

Interestingly, these cells are NOT just found in the bone marrow – they are present in the spleen, liver, kidney. In cases of bone marrow failure, the body CAN produce blood cells from these areas – they even multiply to compensate for bone marrow loss. Patrice’s Chance had no bone marrow production of blood cells, so Chance’s spleen etc had taken over! Embryos produce blood in this way – very little blood is produced in the bone marrow until a while after birth. That is another reason I wanted you to appreciate that because Coal is so young, it may be that she is not producing blood cells in the same way as an adult dog. I can’t find anything about at what age the bone marrow takes over, but a specialist would surely know, hopefully you vet would.

https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/AIHA_Terms/extramedullary-hematopoiesis/

Now to boring old me. At the current state of play in stem cell therapy, it is only proven useful for blood problems when the problem is actually a “mistake” or replication error within a cell line – when cells divide, little DNA errors appear sometimes & of course we know that stem cells can basically turn into any type of cell, so in theory it can affect anything, as in MS. Plus immune response is incredibly complicated & we don’t know everything about it – experts also have different ideas.

If there is an error during hematopoetic stem cells dividing into all the types of blood cells, it wouldn’t be classed as IMHA as such – it would be perhaps a leukemia or pure red cell aplasia for example. Our IMHA problem is generally that T lymphocytes (a type of white blood cell), are destroying blood cells indiscriminantly, as you can see in the AIHA Introductory videos Patrice has done for us.

So, let’s say we give a blood transfusion – that does not cure IMHA, just buys us time for the drugs that suppress the T-Lymphocytes & to work. Without the drugs, those transfused cells would die too, plus any others being produced by the bone marrow itself. To me, that would also apply to stem cell therapy – without the drugs, would the body still not destroy these cells too? I think so. Have I explained that properly? So, unless there is some new method I haven’t found, I don’t think it would work without the drugs anyway – plus how would it suppress the immune system? Therefore it’s no miracle cure at the present time. But I know clinical trials are constantly taking place on humans all the time. Sadly, these things will have previously been tested on animals, so we will have to wait for now for the results. I can find absolutely nothing at the present time to say that stem cell therapy would help our dogs YET. It’s really hard to get any good info on it at all – you have to join the sites as a professional researcher, otherwise you cannot access the full reports.

But I do think that some cases of bone marrow failure could be potentially helped by stem cell therapy in the future – any line of cells can be affected as we know & if this an error in a cell line, this could be very useful indeed. A huge BUT here – at the current time, I don’t think there’s much to prove it works for IMHA.

Our vets would also have to be 100% absolutely sure of the cause of the IMHA/bone marrow failure – we all know how difficult that is & I constantly get annoyed at the lack of effort to find out what has triggered the disease. For example, we often see on blood tests (& from SYMPTOMS) that the pet has a rip roaring infection, yet no antibiotics give, or antibiotics given without proper investigation – cultures, blood smears etc. The Merck Manual lists everything that should be investigated, but it just doesn’t happen often enough. Stick our pets on the drugs & see what happens is an unacceptable attitude really, but at least it does save them – delaying treatment is not an option either. It’s hard enough even getting them to do a blood smear sometimes!!!! This one action can reveal such a huge amount about what has happened & is not done often enough – so what chance do we have in getting a real accurate diagnosis in most cases – not a lot! I wanted to get a PCR test done (that reveals DNA remnants of any bacteria / virus / fungus / protozoa, or other living or dead foreign invader) but they wouldn’t do it because Worzel was already on antibiotics (told me it was a waste of money anyway). Wish I had done it in a way, but as Worzel has been in remission, it’s not important now.

In his case, we are pretty sure that Ehrlichiosis PLUS a vaccination caused his bone marrow failure – this nasty little thing invades red blood cells & more importantly, hides in the bone marrow. We thought that Worzel had no baby red cells being produced in that marrow whatsoever as none AT ALL were in his blood stream. It was terrible to know that. But on the bone marrow biopsy, he did have very immature baby reticulocytes which were therfore being killed off (by T-Lymphocytes) BEFORE being released into the blood stream. He was very unusual – this is incredibly rare. But it goes to show how difficult a definite 100% diagnosis can be – and did the vaccination tip him over the edge? Yes I believe it did. Would stem cells have helped him? No, because we needed to kill off that infection – which needed weeks of antibiotic treatment – and stop his T-Lymphocytes killing everything too. Thankfully, that’s what we did.

Now IF they could somehow make stem cells produce cells that the T-Lymphocytes would not destroy, that would work! I don’t think the technology exists for that just yet. Also it could be very dangerous potentially – cells that were meant for destruction (genuinely diseased, old or damaged) could be left untouched – maybe that would be a proliferating disaster & sounds scary to me.

I noticed the MediVet Biologics site at the bottom of the first link. I have looked all over the site – there is no information about IMHA treatment at all, no testimonials either. Have you found anything that I haven’t elsewhere? I do think this is well worth discussion & persuing though. We know it works brilliantly for arthritis & degenerative conditions like that. It has to be a future life saver in many other ways too.

The only positive thing I can add is this. I found a lupus site:

http://www.lupus.org/research/stem-cells-and-lupus-research

which says mesenchymal stem cells (from bone marrow or umbilical chord) are anti-inflammatory – is this what we are looking at in the “new” treatment? An anti-inflammatory action perhaps. But how? I don’t know for now.

I have e-mailed this company for information – if you don’t ask you don’t get!!
https://stemgenex.com

Sorry if I bored everyone to death – I hope not.

Love Sheena xxxxx

 

[Sheena]

Hi all

Just had a phone call from Stemgenex – a courtesy secretarial call – very nice lady, but no medical knowledge – never heard of IMHA. If hadn’t mentioned dogs, I could have got further as it is her job to collect data & pass on to the scientific folk – they only treat humans, not animals. Anyone with a doctor or nurse in the family will to call them & ask them if human IMHA patients benefit from stem cell therapy – if so how exactly??????

Sheena x

[Amy]

So much great information thank you Sheena. I have found a few places that list treatment of IMHA with stem cell therapy. I will look them up and post them to you. Maybe you can figure out what is being done as I have not educated myself enough to this point that I am comfortable making a guess on what the process is.

[Amy]

Has anyone done any research on stem cell therapy for IMHA? I have been reading and there is some info out there. I am wondering if you have looked into it. Does it work? What are the costs? Would you consider it for your dog?

[Sheena]

Hi Amy

What a coincidence! I do believe this could be an effective treatment in the near future for our pets. A few weeks back, I watched a pretty deeply medical programme on MS (multiple sclerosis) where the immune system mistakenly attacks the nervous system, particulary the myelin sheath or nerve cell covering, including the brain sometimes. It got me thinking & I have some understanding now of the potential use for IMHA. There are issues – it’s complicated & unknown territory. Can I write you a very detailed message tomorrow when my brain is less tired? (12.35 here so a bit sleepy!). Also I can refer to my notes/main PC etc.

But yes, we would probably all consider anything (that did not involve prolonged pain & suffering of course). I would & one day, this will be the answer to just about every medical problem, auto immune diseases, new organs grown for a specific animal/person …. so many potential uses it blows me away.

More tomorrow

Sheena x

[Sheena]

Also should mention cancer breakthrough in instructing the immune system to destroy cancer cells – maybe stopping T lymphocytes from attacking normal blood cells could be achieved one day in a similar way. As you know, this is the problem we face & why we have to suppress T Lymphocytes with the drugs.

[Amy]

I would love to hear more of what you know. There are a few Veterinary hospital treating IMHA with stem cells but I am confused on how its done. I get the stem cell use for joint pain because it is injected directly into the joints. I can’t find enough information about stem cell use for the IMHA and what the process is. I look forward to hearing what you know.

[Vally]

I agree Sheena, I suspect everything will pretty much all be cured by self in the future. Looking forward to it Sheena.

[Sheena]

Hi Amy

Think you might be interested in what Eleonora was asking – I hope I’ve explained in general terms here:
https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/forums/topic/camilla-aiha-dog-from-italy/page/9/

You might have found these sites already but worth a read:

http://www.vvhcny.com/newpage101.pml

http://tinyurl.com/hc8ad98

This article is one of my favourites explaining every known cause of this disease:
http://tinyurl.com/h4kwgnt

Here is a picture of a hematoetic stem cell
https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/AIHA_Terms/hsc-hematopoietic-stem-cells/

Interestingly, these cells are NOT just found in the bone marrow – they are present in the spleen, liver, kidney. In cases of bone marrow failure, the body CAN produce blood cells from these areas – they even multiply to compensate for bone marrow loss. Patrice’s Chance had no bone marrow production of blood cells, so Chance’s spleen etc had taken over! Embryos produce blood in this way – very little blood is produced in the bone marrow until a while after birth. That is another reason I wanted you to appreciate that because Coal is so young, it may be that she is not producing blood cells in the same way as an adult dog. I can’t find anything about at what age the bone marrow takes over, but a specialist would surely know, hopefully you vet would.

https://www.secondchanceaihadogs.com/AIHA_Terms/extramedullary-hematopoiesis/

Now to boring old me. At the current state of play in stem cell therapy, it is only proven useful for blood problems when the problem is actually a “mistake” or replication error within a cell line – when cells divide, little DNA errors appear sometimes & of course we know that stem cells can basically turn into any type of cell, so in theory it can affect anything, as in MS. Plus immune response is incredibly complicated & we don’t know everything about it – experts also have different ideas.

If there is an error during hematopoetic stem cells dividing into all the types of blood cells, it wouldn’t be classed as IMHA as such – it would be perhaps a leukemia or pure red cell aplasia for example. Our IMHA problem is generally that T lymphocytes (a type of white blood cell), are destroying blood cells indiscriminantly, as you can see in the AIHA Introductory videos Patrice has done for us.

So, let’s say we give a blood transfusion – that does not cure IMHA, just buys us time for the drugs that suppress the T-Lymphocytes & to work. Without the drugs, those transfused cells would die too, plus any others being produced by the bone marrow itself. To me, that would also apply to stem cell therapy – without the drugs, would the body still not destroy these cells too? I think so. Have I explained that properly? So, unless there is some new method I haven’t found, I don’t think it would work without the drugs anyway – plus how would it suppress the immune system? Therefore it’s no miracle cure at the present time. But I know clinical trials are constantly taking place on humans all the time. Sadly, these things will have previously been tested on animals, so we will have to wait for now for the results. I can find absolutely nothing at the present time to say that stem cell therapy would help our dogs YET. It’s really hard to get any good info on it at all – you have to join the sites as a professional researcher, otherwise you cannot access the full reports.

But I do think that some cases of bone marrow failure could be potentially helped by stem cell therapy in the future – any line of cells can be affected as we know & if this an error in a cell line, this could be very useful indeed. A huge BUT here – at the current time, I don’t think there’s much to prove it works for IMHA.

Our vets would also have to be 100% absolutely sure of the cause of the IMHA/bone marrow failure – we all know how difficult that is & I constantly get annoyed at the lack of effort to find out what has triggered the disease. For example, we often see on blood tests (& from SYMPTOMS) that the pet has a rip roaring infection, yet no antibiotics give, or antibiotics given without proper investigation – cultures, blood smears etc. The Merck Manual lists everything that should be investigated, but it just doesn’t happen often enough. Stick our pets on the drugs & see what happens is an unacceptable attitude really, but at least it does save them – delaying treatment is not an option either. It’s hard enough even getting them to do a blood smear sometimes!!!! This one action can reveal such a huge amount about what has happened & is not done often enough – so what chance do we have in getting a real accurate diagnosis in most cases – not a lot! I wanted to get a PCR test done (that reveals DNA remnants of any bacteria / virus / fungus / protozoa, or other living or dead foreign invader) but they wouldn’t do it because Worzel was already on antibiotics (told me it was a waste of money anyway). Wish I had done it in a way, but as Worzel has been in remission, it’s not important now.

In his case, we are pretty sure that Ehrlichiosis PLUS a vaccination caused his bone marrow failure – this nasty little thing invades red blood cells & more importantly, hides in the bone marrow. We thought that Worzel had no baby red cells being produced in that marrow whatsoever as none AT ALL were in his blood stream. It was terrible to know that. But on the bone marrow biopsy, he did have very immature baby reticulocytes which were therfore being killed off (by T-Lymphocytes) BEFORE being released into the blood stream. He was very unusual – this is incredibly rare. But it goes to show how difficult a definite 100% diagnosis can be – and did the vaccination tip him over the edge? Yes I believe it did. Would stem cells have helped him? No, because we needed to kill off that infection – which needed weeks of antibiotic treatment – and stop his T-Lymphocytes killing everything too. Thankfully, that’s what we did.

Now IF they could somehow make stem cells produce cells that the T-Lymphocytes would not destroy, that would work! I don’t think the technology exists for that just yet. Also it could be very dangerous potentially – cells that were meant for destruction (genuinely diseased, old or damaged) could be left untouched – maybe that would be a proliferating disaster & sounds scary to me.

I noticed the MediVet Biologics site at the bottom of the first link. I have looked all over the site – there is no information about IMHA treatment at all, no testimonials either. Have you found anything that I haven’t elsewhere? I do think this is well worth discussion & persuing though. We know it works brilliantly for arthritis & degenerative conditions like that. It has to be a future life saver in many other ways too.

The only positive thing I can add is this. I found a lupus site:

http://www.lupus.org/research/stem-cells-and-lupus-research

which says mesenchymal stem cells (from bone marrow or umbilical chord) are anti-inflammatory – is this what we are looking at in the “new” treatment? An anti-inflammatory action perhaps. But how? I don’t know for now.

I have e-mailed this company for information – if you don’t ask you don’t get!!
https://stemgenex.com

Sorry if I bored everyone to death – I hope not.

Love Sheena xxxxx

 

[Sheena]

Hi all

Just had a phone call from Stemgenex – a courtesy secretarial call – very nice lady, but no medical knowledge – never heard of IMHA. If hadn’t mentioned dogs, I could have got further as it is her job to collect data & pass on to the scientific folk – they only treat humans, not animals. Anyone with a doctor or nurse in the family will to call them & ask them if human IMHA patients benefit from stem cell therapy – if so how exactly??????

Sheena x

[Amy]

So much great information thank you Sheena. I have found a few places that list treatment of IMHA with stem cell therapy. I will look them up and post them to you. Maybe you can figure out what is being done as I have not educated myself enough to this point that I am comfortable making a guess on what the process is.