Overwhelmed and don't know what to expect- just started Prednisone on Charlie

[Todd]

Vally,

Not in New Zealand. In NJ. Dodds had told me I can feed lamb but must be grass fed. She mentioned that typically means NZ lamb.

I was going to mention onion’s un my last post. I honestly had no idea, unlit I started really researching foods, IMHA, etc that onions were an issue for dogs. I know I had fed my dogs table food in the past that was made with onions.

As far as the Denamarin, Colby is still on it and I don;t plan on changing that, especially while she is still taking any meds.

50% drops in Pred is not abnormal. Most of mine were 50% drops per Dodds. But I wouldn’t expect the 1st drop to be 50% and or maybe the 2nd. I didn’t have Dr. Dodds consulting until I was 1 month in so not sure what she would have said from the start. I did specifically ask her back at the start as to how does the drop schedule work, how often, etc. Pred in the body is like psychological meds in that you have to taper off slowly so the body doesn’t react badly. I typically waited to drop when I had good blood results and then retested within the 7-10 days to get a result before I dropped again. Any drop in PVC was terrifying to me until Dr. Dodds gave me reassurances.

My Vet used to own the practice (still works there) and he is family. However, I know he doesn’t have the experience that Dr. Dodds would have in regard to IMHA. Thus, everything gets run by Dodds and I follow her advice/response if it differs from my Vet. I run everything by her. Anytime Colby was sick etc.

On my last visit, my vet thought that I was reporting back to the hospital, when I asked for a copy of that days blood results. He said that he sends them over and then I told him I was consulting with a Dr. Dodds and he knew exactly who she was. During this appt he was thinking that I should stop the mycophenalate since he had read some research that it could cause gastric issues. After mentioning Dodds he said I should check with her. As I suspected she said absolutely not and that Colby will be on it long term. If I didn’t have Dodds there are numerous times I would have been pulled off meds, had meds increased arbitrarily etc. I have stayed the course and about 2 weeks away from a 1 yr anniversary.

[Deb]

Todd and Vally,
This has been a great exchange and has been very helpful to me.

This last 50% drop from 10mg to 5mg pred was per Dr. Dodds. This is the first time however I have dropped by 50%, it has always been the 25-33%, so I’m thinking it is because it is a fairly low dose at this point so it can drop quicker. I think you are right regarding him not feeling good after a drop, but it seems like it was short lived and I feel he is doing better and is a little stronger on the lower dose. Todd, I have been checking his HCT about every 10 days-2 weeks and if it is ok, then we do another drop. I guess I have been fairly cautious about dropping too quickly although I know Dr. Dodds recommends 5-7 days sometimes and then sometimes in 10 days…this site says about 2 weeks in between drops.

As far as the thyroxine goes, the starting dose per Dr. Dodds is 0.1mg /15 pounds of ideal body weight then give that twice a day. The ave dose ends up being 0.1mg/10 pounds twice a day, but I’m sure like people it is individual and that is why they should check a t4 about 4-6 weeks after starting to adjust dose. I haven’t run all this by Dr. Dodds yet but that is what I have read for adjusting. I would probably get the T4 checked just to make sure you are not giving too much thyroid.

Vally, how long did it take to get some of the muscle wasting reversed on Bingo? What did you give to help with his arthritis?

Vally, I submitted a picture for approval on this website of Charlie taken in the Fall of 2016 at age 14… It would be great if it could be added to this post so you guys have visual of my beautiful boy…thanks guys for all the info/support!

[Vally]

Deb, I was giving Bingo, you had better sit down for this, Green lipped mussel,
MSM Powder, Cinnamon, Ginger, Gelatine, Turmeric, Coconut Oil, Traumeel and Zeel (which are your T-Relief), as well as other stuff, not related to arthritis.

I wasn’t give them when he was at his worse though, I introduced them one at a time when he wasn’t on much of the heavy medication any more.

I also used to do T-Touch therapy (you can look that up on YouTube) and the vet did laser acupuncture.

Let’s see what Charlie looks like.

Vally
xxx

[Todd]

Deb,

Just to clarify, what I posted about Throxine is what Dr. Dodds states in her protocol. However, based on my dogs age her recommended dose was .05 – .075 2x a day versus the .1mg 2x a day. Said was plenty and a higher dose could lead to increased metabolism and blood pressure. Based on the breed there s a chance of lower metabolism issue and in the absence of a thyroid issue anyway, the Thyroxine at a lower dose has the side benefit of bone marrow and increased platelet production.

Glad to hear you got confirmation from Dodds about the drop. I was assuming this was like the 1st drop. But, I do have a question. When you were taking 10mg a day, I think you previously stated that was all given in one shot in the am, is that correct vs. 5mg in the am and 5mg in the PM? If only given 1x a day was Dr. Dodds made aware of that? When Dr. Dodds said to drop to 5mg, did she stay if it was given once a day or 2.5mg in the AM and then 2.5mg in the PM? I had specifically asked her the following question at the start:

“Then what should the taper schedule be (i.e. how many mg to taper, how much time to wait to test again, and if good taper same mg again or something else, etc. Sort of trying to plot out from where I am today at 7.5mg per day (2.5mg & 5mg) down to the 1.25mg, which will occur over “x” amount of time, assuming all signs positive along the way.”

Answer back:

“Taper every 7 -10 days and the retest every 2 weeks .. i.e. from current dose to 2.5 mg twice daily , then, if OK, to 1.25 mg twice daily, then , if OK, to 1.25 mg once daily for 2 weeks , then , if OK, to 1.25 mg every other day for maintenance.”

So just want to make sure you and Dr. Dodds are on the same page as to how that 5mg is administered (1x a day or split for 2x a day administration). Makes a difference in the continuous levels in the body. Based on what the animal hospital originally told me and what Dr. Dodds wrote to me above, the Pred dose seems to be spread over 12hr intervals vs. one shot and then as they are halved, its halved across both doses keeping the pred levels consistent. Except in the case of a less then 50% drop, where it may be taken from the PM side only or when you get down to the maintenance dose (daily or every other day).

[Deb]

VAlly and Todd-
Diarrhea is BACK AGAIN– UGGH! I just picked up some sweet potatoes so will try this-instead of the rice. Stinking up my whole kitchen baking and dripping and burning in my oven (didn’t know they did that!) I might have to go back to the metronidazole, he’s only been off 2 days…

Todd, Dr. Dodd sent me a liver cleansing and also a kidney cleansing diet, but you were talking about a “list” of acceptable foods to make up your diet …can you share what you received from her with me? Also where did you get the chickpea idea? How do you cook these? Never bought these either are they dried with the lentils? I read that these are high in fiber and protein so I’m thinking that would be a good thing for the diarrhea.

The prednisone went from 7.5mg twice a day to 10mg once a day… and Dr. Dodds was aware of this and now we are at 5mg daily, next step will be 5mg every other day. I’m thinking part of the reason for this is so that the body starts to kick in its own cortisone instead of always providing coverage. Same reason for going with every other day dosing.

Vally, so when Bingo relapsed you noticed mostly arthritis symptoms but also off his food and fever correct? Was this gradual or right away? I noticed today that Charlie was really having problems with his back legs this morning, more so than he has had in a long while (I reduced his dose 4 days ago)- but he is not off food at all, and is better tonight except that he started with diarrhea last evening again. I’m assuming when you took him in his HCT had dropped to confirm a relapse? Also you mentioned using coconut oil to help in the diet with some inflammation…is that used to saute with instead of olive oil like Todd uses or are you just mixing in with food …and about how much (will this cause more problem with diarrhea). Golly this is just such a balancing act…

[Todd]

Deb,

As far as food, did you switch back to kibble or were you still feeding the ground turkey, etc. Going back to kibble kept reverting back to the diarrhea.

As far as the veg, I asked the following:

“I found the original attachment you sent regarding the liver cleanse diet which says also good for irritable bowel. Is that the listing of veg that I should stick with?”

Her response: ” YES – zucchini, carrots, spinach, chick peas, green beans.”

I also asked: ” Can I use those particular spices/herbs (garlic, parsley, salt, pepper) or keep it plain?”

Her answer: ” Some pets don’t like it plain –so use your own judgement – aromatic Italian herbs usually stimulate appetite (basil, oregano) ”

I also asked: “As for rice, just plain old white long grain rice or something else?” Her response ” YES”

I asked: “As far as the white fish. Is there a certain type of white fish I should pick?”

Her response: ” Cod, tilapia, mahi mahi”

I asked: ” Cooked how?”

Her response: “Steamed, baked or sautéed in olive oil”

She originally sent me this prior to the questions above: “For dogs with a damaged bowel mucosa, bowel ulceration, and true “leaky gut” syndrome, many food antigens will be reactive to the bowel surface. The gut must be treated symptomatically to heal before it can start to tolerate foods again. Therapies can include drugs and nutraceuticals such as metronidazole (Flagyl), tylocin powder (Tylan), budesonide (Enterocort), bentonite clay (Rx Clay), prebiotics (spirulina) and probiotics (Rx Nutrigest, Rx Biotic, FortiFlora, or others), slippery elm powder and digestive support. A bland diet should be fed with compatible foods such as cooked white-colored fish and rice, lamb and rice, or turkey and rice, plus steamed vegetables and cooked eggs.”

The chick peas (also known as garbanzo beans) come in a can. Rinse them off in a strainer. I steam them in the microwave till they are soft. When I first made the food I left the beans whole. Now I mash them up in a bowl. For the carrots, I chop them up sort of fine in a food processor and steam them. I did this since when the pieces were bigger I saw they just ended up in the poop and figure then they don’t get digested so figure finer is better. I cut the zucchini small and in the microwave steam bag I add a bunch of oregano, little salt and pepper and steam. I buy baby spinach in a microwavable bag and steam that and chop it up.

I only used the olive oil when sautéing the fish or on the skin of the turkey breast when I made that last. The skin gets discarded after cooing. Only tried those 2 proteins so far. Will probably go back to fish. Like fish breath better then then the turkey :)

I would go back to the Metronidazole, if Dodds agrees. I would also do it for 10-14 days. Once I put Colby on the diet she never had an issue since. So once you get on her cleansing diet that hopefully will stop the diarrhea.

[Vally]

Here’s Charlie

Attachments:

1. 

[Vally]

Deb, Bingo’s symptoms were very sudden and quick.

Remember too, prednisone is used to help with arthritis, so in lowering it, Charlie is probably feeling the effects of both the body trying to make it’s own cortisol and also the loss of pain relief from the prednisone.

Coconut oil, I just added 1/4 teaspoon twice daily to Bingo’s food and he weighed 7.5kg. I used cold pressed virgin coconut oil. I would go easy on that right now though as I’m certain if Charlie isn’t used to it, it could cause more bowel problems. I now give Saba (25kg) about a teaspoon twice a day in her food.

Vally

[Todd]

Vally,

Not in New Zealand. In NJ. Dodds had told me I can feed lamb but must be grass fed. She mentioned that typically means NZ lamb.

I was going to mention onion’s un my last post. I honestly had no idea, unlit I started really researching foods, IMHA, etc that onions were an issue for dogs. I know I had fed my dogs table food in the past that was made with onions.

As far as the Denamarin, Colby is still on it and I don;t plan on changing that, especially while she is still taking any meds.

50% drops in Pred is not abnormal. Most of mine were 50% drops per Dodds. But I wouldn’t expect the 1st drop to be 50% and or maybe the 2nd. I didn’t have Dr. Dodds consulting until I was 1 month in so not sure what she would have said from the start. I did specifically ask her back at the start as to how does the drop schedule work, how often, etc. Pred in the body is like psychological meds in that you have to taper off slowly so the body doesn’t react badly. I typically waited to drop when I had good blood results and then retested within the 7-10 days to get a result before I dropped again. Any drop in PVC was terrifying to me until Dr. Dodds gave me reassurances.

My Vet used to own the practice (still works there) and he is family. However, I know he doesn’t have the experience that Dr. Dodds would have in regard to IMHA. Thus, everything gets run by Dodds and I follow her advice/response if it differs from my Vet. I run everything by her. Anytime Colby was sick etc.

On my last visit, my vet thought that I was reporting back to the hospital, when I asked for a copy of that days blood results. He said that he sends them over and then I told him I was consulting with a Dr. Dodds and he knew exactly who she was. During this appt he was thinking that I should stop the mycophenalate since he had read some research that it could cause gastric issues. After mentioning Dodds he said I should check with her. As I suspected she said absolutely not and that Colby will be on it long term. If I didn’t have Dodds there are numerous times I would have been pulled off meds, had meds increased arbitrarily etc. I have stayed the course and about 2 weeks away from a 1 yr anniversary.

[Deb]

Todd and Vally,
This has been a great exchange and has been very helpful to me.

This last 50% drop from 10mg to 5mg pred was per Dr. Dodds. This is the first time however I have dropped by 50%, it has always been the 25-33%, so I’m thinking it is because it is a fairly low dose at this point so it can drop quicker. I think you are right regarding him not feeling good after a drop, but it seems like it was short lived and I feel he is doing better and is a little stronger on the lower dose. Todd, I have been checking his HCT about every 10 days-2 weeks and if it is ok, then we do another drop. I guess I have been fairly cautious about dropping too quickly although I know Dr. Dodds recommends 5-7 days sometimes and then sometimes in 10 days…this site says about 2 weeks in between drops.

As far as the thyroxine goes, the starting dose per Dr. Dodds is 0.1mg /15 pounds of ideal body weight then give that twice a day. The ave dose ends up being 0.1mg/10 pounds twice a day, but I’m sure like people it is individual and that is why they should check a t4 about 4-6 weeks after starting to adjust dose. I haven’t run all this by Dr. Dodds yet but that is what I have read for adjusting. I would probably get the T4 checked just to make sure you are not giving too much thyroid.

Vally, how long did it take to get some of the muscle wasting reversed on Bingo? What did you give to help with his arthritis?

Vally, I submitted a picture for approval on this website of Charlie taken in the Fall of 2016 at age 14… It would be great if it could be added to this post so you guys have visual of my beautiful boy…thanks guys for all the info/support!

[Vally]

Deb, I was giving Bingo, you had better sit down for this, Green lipped mussel,
MSM Powder, Cinnamon, Ginger, Gelatine, Turmeric, Coconut Oil, Traumeel and Zeel (which are your T-Relief), as well as other stuff, not related to arthritis.

I wasn’t give them when he was at his worse though, I introduced them one at a time when he wasn’t on much of the heavy medication any more.

I also used to do T-Touch therapy (you can look that up on YouTube) and the vet did laser acupuncture.

Let’s see what Charlie looks like.

Vally
xxx

[Todd]

Deb,

Just to clarify, what I posted about Throxine is what Dr. Dodds states in her protocol. However, based on my dogs age her recommended dose was .05 – .075 2x a day versus the .1mg 2x a day. Said was plenty and a higher dose could lead to increased metabolism and blood pressure. Based on the breed there s a chance of lower metabolism issue and in the absence of a thyroid issue anyway, the Thyroxine at a lower dose has the side benefit of bone marrow and increased platelet production.

Glad to hear you got confirmation from Dodds about the drop. I was assuming this was like the 1st drop. But, I do have a question. When you were taking 10mg a day, I think you previously stated that was all given in one shot in the am, is that correct vs. 5mg in the am and 5mg in the PM? If only given 1x a day was Dr. Dodds made aware of that? When Dr. Dodds said to drop to 5mg, did she stay if it was given once a day or 2.5mg in the AM and then 2.5mg in the PM? I had specifically asked her the following question at the start:

“Then what should the taper schedule be (i.e. how many mg to taper, how much time to wait to test again, and if good taper same mg again or something else, etc. Sort of trying to plot out from where I am today at 7.5mg per day (2.5mg & 5mg) down to the 1.25mg, which will occur over “x” amount of time, assuming all signs positive along the way.”

Answer back:

“Taper every 7 -10 days and the retest every 2 weeks .. i.e. from current dose to 2.5 mg twice daily , then, if OK, to 1.25 mg twice daily, then , if OK, to 1.25 mg once daily for 2 weeks , then , if OK, to 1.25 mg every other day for maintenance.”

So just want to make sure you and Dr. Dodds are on the same page as to how that 5mg is administered (1x a day or split for 2x a day administration). Makes a difference in the continuous levels in the body. Based on what the animal hospital originally told me and what Dr. Dodds wrote to me above, the Pred dose seems to be spread over 12hr intervals vs. one shot and then as they are halved, its halved across both doses keeping the pred levels consistent. Except in the case of a less then 50% drop, where it may be taken from the PM side only or when you get down to the maintenance dose (daily or every other day).

[Deb]

VAlly and Todd-
Diarrhea is BACK AGAIN– UGGH! I just picked up some sweet potatoes so will try this-instead of the rice. Stinking up my whole kitchen baking and dripping and burning in my oven (didn’t know they did that!) I might have to go back to the metronidazole, he’s only been off 2 days…

Todd, Dr. Dodd sent me a liver cleansing and also a kidney cleansing diet, but you were talking about a “list” of acceptable foods to make up your diet …can you share what you received from her with me? Also where did you get the chickpea idea? How do you cook these? Never bought these either are they dried with the lentils? I read that these are high in fiber and protein so I’m thinking that would be a good thing for the diarrhea.

The prednisone went from 7.5mg twice a day to 10mg once a day… and Dr. Dodds was aware of this and now we are at 5mg daily, next step will be 5mg every other day. I’m thinking part of the reason for this is so that the body starts to kick in its own cortisone instead of always providing coverage. Same reason for going with every other day dosing.

Vally, so when Bingo relapsed you noticed mostly arthritis symptoms but also off his food and fever correct? Was this gradual or right away? I noticed today that Charlie was really having problems with his back legs this morning, more so than he has had in a long while (I reduced his dose 4 days ago)- but he is not off food at all, and is better tonight except that he started with diarrhea last evening again. I’m assuming when you took him in his HCT had dropped to confirm a relapse? Also you mentioned using coconut oil to help in the diet with some inflammation…is that used to saute with instead of olive oil like Todd uses or are you just mixing in with food …and about how much (will this cause more problem with diarrhea). Golly this is just such a balancing act…

[Todd]

Deb,

As far as food, did you switch back to kibble or were you still feeding the ground turkey, etc. Going back to kibble kept reverting back to the diarrhea.

As far as the veg, I asked the following:

“I found the original attachment you sent regarding the liver cleanse diet which says also good for irritable bowel. Is that the listing of veg that I should stick with?”

Her response: ” YES – zucchini, carrots, spinach, chick peas, green beans.”

I also asked: ” Can I use those particular spices/herbs (garlic, parsley, salt, pepper) or keep it plain?”

Her answer: ” Some pets don’t like it plain –so use your own judgement – aromatic Italian herbs usually stimulate appetite (basil, oregano) ”

I also asked: “As for rice, just plain old white long grain rice or something else?” Her response ” YES”

I asked: “As far as the white fish. Is there a certain type of white fish I should pick?”

Her response: ” Cod, tilapia, mahi mahi”

I asked: ” Cooked how?”

Her response: “Steamed, baked or sautéed in olive oil”

She originally sent me this prior to the questions above: “For dogs with a damaged bowel mucosa, bowel ulceration, and true “leaky gut” syndrome, many food antigens will be reactive to the bowel surface. The gut must be treated symptomatically to heal before it can start to tolerate foods again. Therapies can include drugs and nutraceuticals such as metronidazole (Flagyl), tylocin powder (Tylan), budesonide (Enterocort), bentonite clay (Rx Clay), prebiotics (spirulina) and probiotics (Rx Nutrigest, Rx Biotic, FortiFlora, or others), slippery elm powder and digestive support. A bland diet should be fed with compatible foods such as cooked white-colored fish and rice, lamb and rice, or turkey and rice, plus steamed vegetables and cooked eggs.”

The chick peas (also known as garbanzo beans) come in a can. Rinse them off in a strainer. I steam them in the microwave till they are soft. When I first made the food I left the beans whole. Now I mash them up in a bowl. For the carrots, I chop them up sort of fine in a food processor and steam them. I did this since when the pieces were bigger I saw they just ended up in the poop and figure then they don’t get digested so figure finer is better. I cut the zucchini small and in the microwave steam bag I add a bunch of oregano, little salt and pepper and steam. I buy baby spinach in a microwavable bag and steam that and chop it up.

I only used the olive oil when sautéing the fish or on the skin of the turkey breast when I made that last. The skin gets discarded after cooing. Only tried those 2 proteins so far. Will probably go back to fish. Like fish breath better then then the turkey :)

I would go back to the Metronidazole, if Dodds agrees. I would also do it for 10-14 days. Once I put Colby on the diet she never had an issue since. So once you get on her cleansing diet that hopefully will stop the diarrhea.

[Vally]

Here’s Charlie

Attachments:

1. 

[Vally]

Deb, Bingo’s symptoms were very sudden and quick.

Remember too, prednisone is used to help with arthritis, so in lowering it, Charlie is probably feeling the effects of both the body trying to make it’s own cortisol and also the loss of pain relief from the prednisone.

Coconut oil, I just added 1/4 teaspoon twice daily to Bingo’s food and he weighed 7.5kg. I used cold pressed virgin coconut oil. I would go easy on that right now though as I’m certain if Charlie isn’t used to it, it could cause more bowel problems. I now give Saba (25kg) about a teaspoon twice a day in her food.

Vally